THE VALUE OF NALC

Question

I am writing this thread so as to take opinion about an issue I have.  I know what I want to do but because the issue is so fundamental, I would like some independent opinion. This issue is all about what value is NALC to the individual Council/Councillor in carrying out their public duty.   I am in a dilemma because during my working life everything revolved around understanding who my customer was for anything that I did.  Paramount  was understanding their needs and aspiring to meet those needs.   Then several years ago I discovered Parish Councils and soon realised that customer considerations did not really enter the mindset of most Councillors.  However, some months ago I applied to be a Councillor and got stuck in.  The reaction was unbelievably hostile especially from Councillors. Anyhow we now come to the issue of NALC .  Whilst I am unsure of precisely what they offer PCs as a whole package (we pay about £800pa)  I did know that they issue Legal Topic Notes which were useful to any Councillor carrying out research and I therefore asked our new Locum Clerk for password access to the local branch’s website (members area) .  This was refused by the clerk saying that she had sole discretion. I rang the local  branch and they said “yep that’s right”.    They further commented “look we can’t deal with individual Councillors (understand that)  and all business is transacted through the clerk (as the PCs representative)  and as far as we are concerned she is our only point of contact. If you have any problems deal with her but in the meantime, we won’t deal with anyone else”. I then wrote to NALC HQ twice but they did not reply .   A further recent request to the clerk got the response “sorry I haven’t changed my mind the matter is closed”.  Now I believe she is acting beyond her role in “setting policy” and I am quite happy to write to the staffing committee although the Councillors on that seem to be clinging to her every word (they cant recruit a full time clerk) .  The alternative is to ask the question of Councillors” OK if that is  NALCs attitude why would any Council want to belong to such an organisation if they show such a blatant disregard for their customers (the Council’s) needs .

I know that whatever I do it will stir up a hornet’s nest but if anything, I am trying to understand what added value do NALC truly  bring to any Council operations? On balance do most commentators believe membership is necessary or worthwhile ?

Answer 1

An initial observation. Your Council doesn't affiliate to the NALC. Your affiliation is to your local association, which is an independent organisation.

For what it's worth, I don't allow any of my Councillors to have access to the Members' Area of my local association's website or the NALC, as I consider it part of my role to provide appropriate advice. The value of the NALC and its local associations manifests itself through the provision of model standing orders, financial regulations, policies and procedures that are constantly under review as the law changes. The LTN's and other guidance notes are invaluable in clarifying a myriad of issues and where would we have been during the pandemic without this support mechanism?

Comments

With respect, I do not think your comments answer my point.

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Let me put it another way. I am providing the service my councils want me to provide. They don't want to become bogged down in legislation, guidance and legal opinion. We're a team and everybody has clearly defined roles. Mine includes the guidance function. We work very closely together and there are no factions or infighting. Differences of opinion are resolved by calm mature negotiation. All information is shared openly for the common good. Every email I receive from our local association and the NALC is auto-forwarded to every councillor, so that they are aware of the bigger picture, events, training opportunities etc

Imagine a county council in which all 60-plus members seek their own guidance on matters under consideration. Where would that leave the officers? Members rely on officers to tell them what is or isn't legal/feasible/achievable. That's how local government works.

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All very interesting but your further comments skate around my central concern in your original post.  Lets leave it there.

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Dave    I think you are right in that, if councillors do not want access to NALC Guidance, then they do not need the password.   If they do - then they should get it (or find a friendly clerk and or surf the web).  Re guidance, I do not like the Parish Council Bow Tie Organisation and prefer the Charitable world now.  In that world all trustees use their knowledge and expertise to help the cause, and there is a shed load of free guidance available to all.  We do not reply on one person to act as god, and nor should we.    While a councillor recently, the guidance from the clerk was of varying quality being from very good to non existent, with bordering on illegal in the middle.  All advice provided by the clerk needs to be challenged and verified, including NALC and SLCC guidance IMHO.

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I completely agree with your comments especially about advice as my experience mirrors yours and any attempt to seek to verify what we are being told results in personal attacks
Councillors should if they are minded to be allowed to see all documentation relating to an issue not just a précis
In my experience any attempt to discuss finances results in claims that it’s being suggested that there’s fraud
All too often I’m reminded of  my favourite phase “ I know what the answer is but what was the question ? “

Answer 2

The town or Parish council pays for membership of their local NALC association and the council must have full access to all of its services. If the clerk managed the logon credentials he or she must provide any information from NALC that members request, and do it promptly. I can't see any reason why NALC can't provide multiple local council accounts. They should be challenged about it given the amount they charge.

Answer 3

openspaces posed the question "What added value do NALC truly  bring to any Council operations?"  In reality NALC will ask the Local Sub County associations to provide act sometimes as a conduit for NALC services and publications so these must also be considered as part of the whole picture.
Here are some questions to consider whose answers that might help councils come to a view.

What does the annual membership fee bring that adds value to the Council?  Does it include advice that is free (such as Legal Topic Notes) that would cost more to acquire as a non member?  (Could the Principal Authority Legal Department offer it free?)

If the council is a member of NALC and their clerk is a member of the SLCC, can the clerk get the same advice from SLCC?  If so, what else can the the Council get from NALC?

What additional costs are incurred over and above NALC memberships e.g. for NALC training courses? Can other providers offer them more cheaply (e.g. SLCC, Principal Authority etc)

Are NALC annual gatherings just a nice day out jamboree with nice food and chat or do they provide networking opportunities that add value to the council.?

What portion of your membership fee is contributing to these people and how much do they get in salaries and allowances?  https://www.nalc.gov.uk/about/team

NALC say they "Provide a national voice for local (parish and town) councils across England" adding ". We campaign on their behalf, raise awareness of their work and provide them with a range of services to support their needs."  Who do NALC give their voice to, campaign to and raise awareness to? It certainly isn't to members of the public.

NALC charge Councils to be evaluated for their Local Award scheme.  Councils have to pay NALC over and above their membership to be assessed.   Apart from displaying a logo on Council docs and webpages, what benefits do their awards really bring?  Do they get cheaper insurance for example if they have any NALC awars certification.  Are such awards valued or even recognised by members of the public?

Comments

Excellent! long overdue questions Graeme that should be asked by EVERY PC in assessing whether they are getting value for money rather than just "doing it because everyone else is doing it"

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Interesting questions. My thoughts, in order:-
Free advice - not available elsewhere, except perhaps SLCC. Principal authorities, in general, would rather have less involvement than more and certainly will not provide legal advice to third parties.
NALC/SLCC - I don't know, but as Delboy's wife has stated, the NALC is about far more than just LTN's.
Training courses - other providers can (and do) offer them more cheaply, but who monitors the content? Again, principal authorities won't get involved in this sort of thing.
Gatherings - my local association has an annual conference attended by upwards of 300 people from across the county, with speakers from all pieces of the local government jigsaw and it's a fabulous networking opportunity. The cost of this event is covered by commercial sponsorship, as organisations are queueing up to sell their wares.
NALC staff - it's not for us to comment on their terms and conditions. NALC is funded from a variety of sources, including subscriptions from local associations. That's how these things work.
National voice - NALC is the recognised body for the sector and works closely with the MHCLG to ensure that our voice is heard. They also lobby for legislative changes on specific issues.
Awards scheme - some councils value these things, others don't. There are costs for the NALC in assessing applications. If they don't charge the applicant, we'll all end up paying, even if we don't participate. It's up to individual councils to decide whether or not this is a good use of their public funds.

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Great debate so far. Obviously there is no one answer that fits all.  Dave’s is  a part of team that helps shape  his Councils to run the way they should ie with well informed and supported Councillors making good decisions.   However, in many Councils life isn’t like that.  Some are close to corrupt ; some are run on a how many mates have I got basis.   Many have compliant clerks who facilitate the wishes of the strongest group .The problem is how do you change such Councils .  Clearly there is only group that can at that is the Councillors themselves.  But this thread touches on the role that Clerks play in the grand scheme of things .  I think they should always try and stay neutral and perform their assigned task.  However, I can understand some clerks who must scream at the antics of some Councillors so much they feel the need to  step in and try and direct matters.   The question then is “where and what are the boundaries”.  There is not always an easy answer but I have to default to the  fact  that “Councillors are the elected body” and ultimately, they are the only people who can set policy,
Here I believe if anybody or person denies unfettered access to the members of a body to which they have subscribed well quite simply they are making decisions that they are not entitled to make.  I now know a little bit more about NALC and what  its is does. Personally I think it is expensive for what we get and it apparently widespread policy of dealing more with clerks than Councillors is not good

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One of the biggest weaknesses in the system and one which could potentially be resolved quite easily is the fact that most applicants can't qualify as a clerk until they've been a clerk for many months and, presumably, made lots of mistakes and learned lots of bad habits. Imagine if we ran the medical profession along the same lines! Unless you are fortunate enough to work in a senior administrative capacity in local government for an authority that will allow you to study for a CiLCA or similar (and cover the significant cost?), you will need to secure employment as an untrained clerk in a local council that is willing to make a long term commitment to your professional development and work through potential shortcomings in the meantime, with no guarantee that you'll stay once you are qualified.

Surely it's not beyond the realms of possibility to devise a lower-level qualification that could be studied by anybody interested in the role, particularly in smaller parish councils, where the demands are usually less complex, in order that a new clerk enters the profession with the skills, knowledge and confidence to take their rightful place in the corporate hierarchy?

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It is always interesting to learn differing perspectives . Lets hope that somewhere executives of NALC and SLCC might read this thread and realise that there is much more needed to done to improve the quality of the PC product as a whole.  I say this as the governement is obviously not interested and many Councils are self perpetuating .  I for one want the role of the clerk more clearly defined . I shall be putting forward several motions at the next meeting. I wonder if they will "make the cut"

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The Slccs  lowest qualification is ILCA (into to local council administration) and costs £99 plus vat and the applicant has a year to complete it online. IMO there are no excuses for Councils not to agree for their Clerks to receive this training and achieve a recognised qualification and benefits of membership for Council.

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I did suggest considering "Who do NALC give their voice to, campaign to and raise awareness to? "  No obvious response to that yet. I have seen evidence of them tweeting their views about a range of issues, for example supporting the continuation of no referendum dependant precept rises.  But it isn't clear that their comments and campaigns are driven by Parish/Town Council input to any extent.

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To revert to Dave's comments about qualifications for clerks (and I appreciate we're going a little off topic here) could I add that I agree it's possible to join the profession as an unqualified clerk which then requires a supportive council that recognises the value of training, I do think we need to recognise that some clerks may be unqualified but not necessarily untrained.  I am "of a certain age" but joined the realms of parish clerk many years ago after a career as a company secretary (no, not a shorthand typist!) who was qualified through the Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators.  Personally I believe that a good business administration background is an excellent basis to start working as a parish clerk which can then be built upon by the CiLCA training.  When I retired as a clerk, I decided to give back to my local community by becoming a councillor but I've ensured my knowledge is kept current.  I believe the wider picture here is that there is no entry exam for elected (or co-opted) councillors and nor should there be but the council is then reliant upon a professional clerk with or without staff to aid them in their work and decision making.  A clerk who is employed by the council (not by individual councillors) who clearly need an ability to understand the clerk's role and the skills that are required to undertake the recruitment process in the first place.  It's disappointing to see how many councils seem to have a "them and us" approach to their internal partnership working and as Dave has said, a council that works together as a team can literally move mountains for the good of their local community.

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Sapere Aude   You can join SLCC and get ILCA without being a clerk.  You can then apply to further courses.  It benefits councils if all the councillors got the training, let alone the clerks.  The training can be done in a couple of days at a push.

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Another possible way for a new officer to gain skills and information, is to join a larger supportive Parish/Town Council as a deputy clerk.
That is very interesting, about joining SLCC and getting the ILCA qualification for £99 + vat.  That would even be useful/ affordable for some engaged residents.
The whole discussion has been extremely helpful.  I have also worked in organisations where it is important to know who your customers are, both internal and external, and who your stakeholders are. It is also useful to know where you stand within the management structure.  I have been struggling with the scenario of one of the Clerk’s many duties being to advise and direct the Councillors, when the Councillors ignore the advice.  It puts the conscientious clerk in a difficult position.  I have worked in organisations where legal advisers are employed to advise directors/managers, and where clerks are employed to do the managers’ bidding, but I have not come across the situation where the legal advisers are also their general clerks. It seems sometimes that the clerks are expected to manage their managers, but I see from previous questions that there is little recourse to any type of sanctions ( https://towncouncillor.com/6026/circumstances-parish-councillor-removed-their-office-happen ). But that is probably a whole different subject.

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Right the position is that the clerk has agreed with the local affiliated association that access to LTNs by Councillors will be at her discretion.  This policy has not been agreed by Councillors and hence for years nobody knew about it .  This decision has been made for expediency’s sake as the affiliated association has only one employee who works 10 hrs per week.  I have submitted a motion for Cllrs to discuss this  situation and consider ongoing membership. The clerk has refused to accept this motion but has instead agreed to provide a list of all LTNs and will consider requests for access on an individual request basis. In her reply to another associated motion, she has quoted LTN5E where it refers to the procedure for considering motion requests.  While this LTN does not specifically say so the SOs quoted I believe say that refusal of a motion can only be considered if it does not relate to the business of the meeting (its full Council) or it is improperly worded or likely to lead to an unlawful action.    I therefore consider that the motion rejection is procedurally wrong.
In the meantime, I have contacted a member of the affiliated associations committee and he has opined
My motivation as an xxxx member is much more about spreading good ideas and trying to have positive influence with stakeholders such as our Local Authority, I tend not to get too excited by bureaucratic processes – except when (as here it would appear) they get in the way of getting things done.   So I see no good reason why Councillors should not have access to NALC (or xxx) membership pages, in fact one ought to encourage such things as it might help Councillors do their job better.
He concludes
I will talk to my colleagues about the issue, but that’s my view anyway.

This to me gets down to the basics of what is the role and authority  of the Clerk and clearly there are differing opinions.   What if anything should be the next move?

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Role of the Clerk... As a starting point, check your standing orders, financial regs, job description and contract of employment, but don't be surprised by a lack of clarity or even conflicting content.

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It is to provide administrative services and provide advice and support to cllrs, not to try and control access to guidance from an external body. The Clerk is not empowered to exercise discretion, which is a form of unilateral decision making. It seems to be that NALC have no good reason for restricting access to member rights to just one specified council designated person other than laziness.

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"...not empowered to exercise discretion..." Really? Where does it say that?

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In the original post where Openspaces said of their clerk " This was refused by the clerk saying that she had sole discretion" in regard to providing the council account credentials for accessing the NALC legal topic notes. Councillors are the decision making executive, unless the SO's Procedures or Policy provide appropriate delegations. Being discrete could be seen in different contexts though.

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The position is that it now seems that I have managed to get this item on the next agenda of my local affiliated association and with apparent support after discussing the possibility of leaving .  However locally my motion tabled under para 9 to discuss matters at Full Council has been rejected.  The clerk in her reply has relented and said that she will make a list available and supply LTNs on request but not allow unfettered access as she has sole discretion.  She states the local association have agreed with her whilst NALC does not have a view.    My chairman meanwhile suggests that she is acting within her powers and my refusal to go away after the clerk has told me the  matter is closed could constitute harassment.   My response has been "what powers are these then " .  I have also tabled another motion to get greater clarification on para 9 of the SOs. Greater clarification is supposed to be in "local Councils explained" pages 157-164 but cant find a copy.
Things getting a bit hairy now.

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Openspaces      Unfortunately council life is often opinion based assertions unsubstantiated by fact.  I sense however, that you may be the only one chasing this issue in council?   Without other councillor support you will struggle.  You will have to get a cohort who support the idea and call a meeting to discuss it, if the chair does not want to.