THE VALUE OF NALC

Question

I am writing this thread so as to take opinion about an issue I have.  I know what I want to do but because the issue is so fundamental, I would like some independent opinion. This issue is all about what value is NALC to the individual Council/Councillor in carrying out their public duty.   I am in a dilemma because during my working life everything revolved around understanding who my customer was for anything that I did.  Paramount  was understanding their needs and aspiring to meet those needs.   Then several years ago I discovered Parish Councils and soon realised that customer considerations did not really enter the mindset of most Councillors.  However, some months ago I applied to be a Councillor and got stuck in.  The reaction was unbelievably hostile especially from Councillors. Anyhow we now come to the issue of NALC .  Whilst I am unsure of precisely what they offer PCs as a whole package (we pay about £800pa)  I did know that they issue Legal Topic Notes which were useful to any Councillor carrying out research and I therefore asked our new Locum Clerk for password access to the local branch’s website (members area) .  This was refused by the clerk saying that she had sole discretion. I rang the local  branch and they said “yep that’s right”.    They further commented “look we can’t deal with individual Councillors (understand that)  and all business is transacted through the clerk (as the PCs representative)  and as far as we are concerned she is our only point of contact. If you have any problems deal with her but in the meantime, we won’t deal with anyone else”. I then wrote to NALC HQ twice but they did not reply .   A further recent request to the clerk got the response “sorry I haven’t changed my mind the matter is closed”.  Now I believe she is acting beyond her role in “setting policy” and I am quite happy to write to the staffing committee although the Councillors on that seem to be clinging to her every word (they cant recruit a full time clerk) .  The alternative is to ask the question of Councillors” OK if that is  NALCs attitude why would any Council want to belong to such an organisation if they show such a blatant disregard for their customers (the Council’s) needs .

I know that whatever I do it will stir up a hornet’s nest but if anything, I am trying to understand what added value do NALC truly  bring to any Council operations? On balance do most commentators believe membership is necessary or worthwhile ?

Answer 1

An initial observation. Your Council doesn't affiliate to the NALC. Your affiliation is to your local association, which is an independent organisation.

For what it's worth, I don't allow any of my Councillors to have access to the Members' Area of my local association's website or the NALC, as I consider it part of my role to provide appropriate advice. The value of the NALC and its local associations manifests itself through the provision of model standing orders, financial regulations, policies and procedures that are constantly under review as the law changes. The LTN's and other guidance notes are invaluable in clarifying a myriad of issues and where would we have been during the pandemic without this support mechanism?

Comments

Dave I usually agree with you but not in this case
I went through the whole charade of being refused permission by the Clerk and Chair even though I knew the local association freely allowed access
The NALC website is a resource for Clerks and Councillors it is paid for by the residents
If only the Clerk has access I’d suggest PC’s vote against affiliation

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My response to Dave is that given your Councils are actually  the members of the local association how can a clerk (who is not  a member ) legitimately refuse Councillors access to a facility that they pay for?. The reason given seems to indicate that if you did then you lessen the value of the clerk to the Council.  Surely that is not what operating a council is all about?   The value of any Council has surely to be the sum of all its parts.  All of those parts should have one goal i.e. delivering the best service possible to the electorate. We all make decisions for a reason and I am really struggling to understand why any clerk would actively not facilitate Councillors increasing their knowledge  as ultimately it is they that make decisions . But hey ho life is about opinions.

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This is all about personalities and relationships. I don't refuse access, but I don't offer it either. If my Councillors want detailed information about any aspect of their work, they come to me. They know that I rely on numerous resources above and beyond my experience of local government, but they never ask to access those resources. They trust me to find the necessary information and to explain it to them in language they understand. I have distributed NALC LTN's to clarify specific issues, so they know that the resource exists. Whilst an LTN might provide clarity on a specific issue, it doesn't necessarily place this information in the wider context of local government legislation, so taking it in isolation may be unhelpful. I provide that broader context.

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Whether it's a legal topic note from NALC or any other source, I entirely agree that the council has a (hopefully qualified) clerk whose job it is to interpret legislation in the wider context and advise councillors accordingly to allow them to do their job in making appropriate decisions on behalf of the parish council.  However, NALC isn't just about LTNs or the interpretation of them but there's a whole lot of training and other resources available through NALC that I had no issue in councillors accessing when I was clerk.  Having said that, my council isn't a member of NALC as our local county association isn't that great, has provided inconsistent advice and on occasions failed to support the council at all so we're not members and as such not members of NALC either!  I'm intrigued that your local association won't deal with councillors as ours very definitely supports councillors to the exclusion of clerks!

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I agree Dave that it is about relationships.  And in this respect both Councillors and clerks should be mutually supportive. But that is not always the case.  An enquiring Councillor can quickly be branded a trouble maker and threatened as a matter of routine with the conduct code whereas some clerks can be insular and  insist on doing things their way. In such scenarios there have to be agreed boundaries/responsibilities .  I think it speaks volumes in that many Councillors don't even know that LTNs exist (and hence clerks not asked)  and that is at the heart of the real problem with PCs i.e. the poor standard of Councillors.    Too many join for the kudos and contribute little to the debate.   This allows cliques inner sanctums whatever you want to call them to evolve and make matters worse.  No wonder so many walk away

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I feel that before we wade into a pro/anti NALC debate we should all do some homework and ask a few questions.
The local association is the PC's conduit to NALC and their subs are paid to the local association with the local association paying an affiliation fee to NALC for their services. So technically the PC has no right to demand anything from NALC.
Questions: 1) Local associations: What qualifications do they have in essentially   dictating policy instructions etc etc. to elected bodies? By what ( who's) authorisation are they formed or run? Who are they answerable to and who appoints them? How open and transparent are their operations? As they are essentially agents for NALC do they guarantee and indemnify their subscribers the voracity and accuracy of NALC and their advice and documentation?
2) All of the above questions should also be asked of NALC.
All of my investigations so far have failed to get any answers to these questions which an elected body should include in their due diligence before dealing with any organisation to whom they pay over tax payers money
Have your PC done so? It is for the council to make decisions not NALC or local associations.

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I find the comment that "I don't allow any of my Councillors to have access to the Members' Area of my local association's website or the NALC" incredibly worrying, particularly from a contributor who normally makes sense.  The simple fact is that it is the COUNCIL which pays the subscription and the COUNCIL which is the member of the association, be that the county or the national association.

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Answering Mentorman's questions, the local associations are self-governing voluntary organisations, sometimes unincorporated, sometimes incorporated and, from my experience, operate with a board of Trustees on a membership model that allows member councils to seek representation on the board and to attend and vote at their AGM. They employ the most qualified staff they can find to provide day-to-day advice and support to the sector, with the back-up of the legal team at NALC for more complicated matters. They can only ever be as good as the people they employ. Some local associations deal directly with individual councillors, others don't. There appear to be no rules on this, so it is a local decision.

To answer John's point, it is the Council that pays the subscription to the local association and the Council that employs a Clerk to act as its conduit for advice and guidance. If any member of any of my Councils asks me a question, they get a full and detailed answer. As far as I know, my local association doesn't provide this service.

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With respect, I do not think your comments answer my point.

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Let me put it another way. I am providing the service my councils want me to provide. They don't want to become bogged down in legislation, guidance and legal opinion. We're a team and everybody has clearly defined roles. Mine includes the guidance function. We work very closely together and there are no factions or infighting. Differences of opinion are resolved by calm mature negotiation. All information is shared openly for the common good. Every email I receive from our local association and the NALC is auto-forwarded to every councillor, so that they are aware of the bigger picture, events, training opportunities etc

Imagine a county council in which all 60-plus members seek their own guidance on matters under consideration. Where would that leave the officers? Members rely on officers to tell them what is or isn't legal/feasible/achievable. That's how local government works.

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All very interesting but your further comments skate around my central concern in your original post.  Lets leave it there.

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Dave    I think you are right in that, if councillors do not want access to NALC Guidance, then they do not need the password.   If they do - then they should get it (or find a friendly clerk and or surf the web).  Re guidance, I do not like the Parish Council Bow Tie Organisation and prefer the Charitable world now.  In that world all trustees use their knowledge and expertise to help the cause, and there is a shed load of free guidance available to all.  We do not reply on one person to act as god, and nor should we.    While a councillor recently, the guidance from the clerk was of varying quality being from very good to non existent, with bordering on illegal in the middle.  All advice provided by the clerk needs to be challenged and verified, including NALC and SLCC guidance IMHO.

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I completely agree with your comments especially about advice as my experience mirrors yours and any attempt to seek to verify what we are being told results in personal attacks
Councillors should if they are minded to be allowed to see all documentation relating to an issue not just a précis
In my experience any attempt to discuss finances results in claims that it’s being suggested that there’s fraud
All too often I’m reminded of  my favourite phase “ I know what the answer is but what was the question ? “

Answer 2

The town or Parish council pays for membership of their local NALC association and the council must have full access to all of its services. If the clerk managed the logon credentials he or she must provide any information from NALC that members request, and do it promptly. I can't see any reason why NALC can't provide multiple local council accounts. They should be challenged about it given the amount they charge.

Answer 3

openspaces posed the question "What added value do NALC truly  bring to any Council operations?"  In reality NALC will ask the Local Sub County associations to provide act sometimes as a conduit for NALC services and publications so these must also be considered as part of the whole picture.
Here are some questions to consider whose answers that might help councils come to a view.

What does the annual membership fee bring that adds value to the Council?  Does it include advice that is free (such as Legal Topic Notes) that would cost more to acquire as a non member?  (Could the Principal Authority Legal Department offer it free?)

If the council is a member of NALC and their clerk is a member of the SLCC, can the clerk get the same advice from SLCC?  If so, what else can the the Council get from NALC?

What additional costs are incurred over and above NALC memberships e.g. for NALC training courses? Can other providers offer them more cheaply (e.g. SLCC, Principal Authority etc)

Are NALC annual gatherings just a nice day out jamboree with nice food and chat or do they provide networking opportunities that add value to the council.?

What portion of your membership fee is contributing to these people and how much do they get in salaries and allowances?  https://www.nalc.gov.uk/about/team

NALC say they "Provide a national voice for local (parish and town) councils across England" adding ". We campaign on their behalf, raise awareness of their work and provide them with a range of services to support their needs."  Who do NALC give their voice to, campaign to and raise awareness to? It certainly isn't to members of the public.

NALC charge Councils to be evaluated for their Local Award scheme.  Councils have to pay NALC over and above their membership to be assessed.   Apart from displaying a logo on Council docs and webpages, what benefits do their awards really bring?  Do they get cheaper insurance for example if they have any NALC awars certification.  Are such awards valued or even recognised by members of the public?

Comments

It is to provide administrative services and provide advice and support to cllrs, not to try and control access to guidance from an external body. The Clerk is not empowered to exercise discretion, which is a form of unilateral decision making. It seems to be that NALC have no good reason for restricting access to member rights to just one specified council designated person other than laziness.

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"...not empowered to exercise discretion..." Really? Where does it say that?

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In the original post where Openspaces said of their clerk " This was refused by the clerk saying that she had sole discretion" in regard to providing the council account credentials for accessing the NALC legal topic notes. Councillors are the decision making executive, unless the SO's Procedures or Policy provide appropriate delegations. Being discrete could be seen in different contexts though.

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The position is that it now seems that I have managed to get this item on the next agenda of my local affiliated association and with apparent support after discussing the possibility of leaving .  However locally my motion tabled under para 9 to discuss matters at Full Council has been rejected.  The clerk in her reply has relented and said that she will make a list available and supply LTNs on request but not allow unfettered access as she has sole discretion.  She states the local association have agreed with her whilst NALC does not have a view.    My chairman meanwhile suggests that she is acting within her powers and my refusal to go away after the clerk has told me the  matter is closed could constitute harassment.   My response has been "what powers are these then " .  I have also tabled another motion to get greater clarification on para 9 of the SOs. Greater clarification is supposed to be in "local Councils explained" pages 157-164 but cant find a copy.
Things getting a bit hairy now.

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Openspaces      Unfortunately council life is often opinion based assertions unsubstantiated by fact.  I sense however, that you may be the only one chasing this issue in council?   Without other councillor support you will struggle.  You will have to get a cohort who support the idea and call a meeting to discuss it, if the chair does not want to.