Excluding the clerk from the meeting

Question

Our clerk is quite sensitive and has a history of bringing grievances against councillors.
The Personnel Committee recently made a recommendation to the full Parish Council to increase the Clerk's hours. A Councillor asked the Clerk to leave the meeting whilst this was discussed but she refused, saying there was no provision in the Standing Orders to exclude the Clerk (only the press and public) and no conflict of interest as she has no voice. Many Councillors who opposed the recommendation then refused to comment, and abstained from the vote because they did not want to upset her, which made a mockery of the vote.
Was the Clerk correct? She also insists on clerking the Personnel Committee which means it is difficult to have an open conversation about her performance.

Answer 1

This appears to be the classic dilemma (when I say classic, I mean in the very limited sphere of PCs) of who  is actually the employer and who is the employee.
There simply isn’t any other organisation (outside of a doctrinally pure (but practically perverse since there is no actual example of a doctrinally pure communist system)) that would be so terrified, incapable and unwilling to actually take charge of what is - by any measure - a low level administrative employee.
We keep hearing of clerks making all sorts of dictates - from the weird, to the perverse, to the patently bizarre.
Maybe it’s not actually the clerks that are at fault.

Maybe it really is councillors that are incapable of very basic HR function of employing (usually) 1 or 2 people.
Your answer in this case is fairly obvious. The PC chair or the HR chair, or the person / group nominated to ‘manage’ this employee, tell them that they are not required at a HR meeting and / or the part of a PC meeting where their T&Cs are being considered.

Comments

The “ system “ works well when you have a responsible Clerk ( as most are ) but is incapable of managing Clerks when they cause problems as generally the Council acts like a rabbit caught in headlights
Over the last 10 years I’ve seen so many cases of poor behaviour being ignored which in any other sphere would result in suspension/ instant dismissal

---

- by any measure - a low level administrative employee! Wow. Really?

---

Well, er, yes, REALLY.
On the Civil Service grade scale (not sure if a clerk actually qualifies as a civil servant - would be interested to hear from anyone that knows) where would a PC clerk sit on the Civil Service grade scale? E1?  +/- £21k pa?  Band D? +/- £27k pa? Pro-rata obviously.
What is a clerk’s average pay rate at PC level?  £10 -15 per hour?

By any measure, that is basic admin function.
You want to tell me different? Happy to be corrected.
Are there any clerks that are pulling £40 - 50 per hour that might indicate they are on the lower rungs of supervisory / lower management roles?

If somebody wants to present a credible counter argument I’d be happy to hear it but until then, I remain baffled that Cllr’s are so willing to be led by the nose by low level admin functionary. Doesn’t bode well for the quality of Cllr’s to be fair.

---

Interesting and condescending comments - £50 an hour is about £100k salary, not sure where your asumption that that is a 'lower management role' comes from.

Many clerks run busy councils with say 20 staff and earn up to £50-60k - that's hardly a 'low level' role - and have to have multiple skillsets, more than in most jobs. Simialr attitudes to yours are why there are many clerks who get bullied (contrary to the anti-clerk agenda that seems prevalent on here, that clerks are all some weird power crazed bunch) and why bullying is a widely known issue in the sector.

---

Yes, some clerks might have larger town roles but 20 staff? Come on, be realistic - name one. I SPECIFICALLY asked:

What is a clerk’s average pay rate at PC level?  £10 -15 per hour?

If you find my comments condescending, then answer the question. What is the average PC clerk salary at PC level?  I’m reasonably confident that it really is in the £10-15 p/h range and there may be 1 or 2 part time staff.

My position stands in the absence of a credible counter.

---

Incredibly condescending. I’m assuming that you know it’s not 1950 and that we don’t just do ‘a bit of typing’?

---

Rather than claiming faux outrage, why don't you just deal with the subject under discussion?

Is a PC clerk around the £10-15 / hr mark - yes or no?

To address some of your other points "clerks being bullied", "this site having an anti-clerk sentiment" I'd suggest neither are actually a true reflection of reality.

This site is called "Councillors Q&A" although there are many contributors from the clerk fraternity which provide valuable balance.
If you were to to review the many examples of blatant maladministration and misdirection by clerks where cllrs are seeking second opinion or alternative points of view you might get a clearer picture rather than simply claiming there is an anti-clerk sentiment.  The examples come from a broad range of contributors and the range of example scenarios is equally diverse and often staggering by way of content.

Far from "clerks being bullied" the reality is that the slightest perceived criticism or request for clarification from many clerks results in employee complaint or claim of bullying.  The reality actually being that cllrs are often too concerned by the potential for emotional, administrative or coercive reaction from clerks to actually hold them properly to account.
Now if you think what I have written is condescending, I'm afraid that's on you.  It's a point of view and there is ample example to validate it - not least of which your apparent sensitivity.  What fun we'd have if you were an employee....

Are you going to answer the question or are we done here?

---

An employee? Clerks are employees. I am also an employer in my day job but don’t let that stop you patronising someone who you think is ‘just a clerk’. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and I can guarantee that with that attitude, you wouldn’t ever work for me. What fun we’d have indeed.

---

Yes, an employee - a clerk is an employee of a council. If that is ‘news’ to you, well, that kind of proves the point.
What’s your day job if you need to make up hours as a clerk - or is it unsalaried voluntary service?

I don’t think I ever said ‘just’ a clerk, I did ask the question (several times) what is the general salary for a PC clerk. I suggested £10-15/hr and I’m waiting for someone to say that’s incorrect.
I have no idea what I’m talking about?  One of us is making wild speculations and avoiding answering direct questions....  Sounds more like a clerk MO to me.

---

Clerks get bullied regularly - it's a recognised problem with NALC and SLCC. Either by the public who seem to think 'I pay your wages I can talk to you how I want' or by councillors who think they know it all and clash with the jumped up 'admin' person.
I personally know four clerks who have been forced out of their job because of councillor behaviour, in one local area alone.  Yet apparently it's mostly the clerk at fault. And it's often large amounts of public money that pays them off to go quietly rather than the council actually resolve its
issues.

Part of the main issue is councillors assume roles for which they have no actual knowledge or experience - personnel for example - and then find themselves putting their foot in it!

Anyway, I agree you're probably right that on average clerk pay is as you say - but that's because they are often badly underpaid and their role is undervalued. That does not validate your point - other than proving your (and the general) lack of appreciation of the clerk's role.

---

Use the ‘tags’ and see how many clerk ‘issues’ are highlighted here.... Are you suggesting they are all Cllr’s at fault?

---

I recently spoke to a very experienced investigator who’s job it is to undertake Code of Conduct complaints and investigations into Council wrongdoing
He told me he knew of one Town Council Clerk who was on over £70,000
I’ve always said that there’s a niche in the market for an Independent Reviewer of pay levels
If Councillors are scared of their staff then that leaves the Clerk free to set their own pay levels
I’ve mentioned before I know of a large Parish nearby where the newly recruited Clerk asked for and got a 25% pay rise

---

Your tone is revolting. I know who a clerk works for. My day job is not your business but no, I don’t clerk for the money.

---

I wish your ‘very experienced investigator’ would investigate badly behaved councillors.
Clerks are not able to set their own pay levels. That is a decision for full council.

---

In response to Pariahclerk2020 - no need to be overly sensitive. Nothing in what I have written is inflammatory nor inaccurate. That YOU don’t like it is, frankly, something YOU should learn to deal with.

---

It’s perfectly clear from this forum some Councils are well run and some aren’t

I have been a Councillor for 10 years I have no idea how staff wages are arrived at and no idea what individual staff are paid and any attempt to find out would be fruitless
How can I find out ?

I know of one Council that was overpaying staff because the pay was related to what qualifications the staff had not their role

What’s wrong with wages being independently set ?

---

“...I recently spoke to a very experienced investigator who’s job it is to undertake Code of Conduct complaints and investigations into Council wrongdoing...”

“...I wish your ‘very experienced investigator’ would investigate badly behaved councillors...”

Basic reading and comprehension....?.

---

“...What’s wrong with wages being independently set ?”

Part of a solution there. Another part could be:

It’s a part time, work from home, flexible role with the opportunity to work for other employers (still referring to PC)
Many of the poorly performing, unprofessional and inappropriate tendencies would very quickly evaporate if clerks were IR35 rather than cosseted in the T&Cs of the civil service.

---

In a way you're right as the focus tends to be on smaller parishes - but some are as big as towns, require managing multiple staff and the clerk is expected to be multi-hatted (including finance, HR, project management etc). There's total justification for some - not many -  to be well paid. They're very differetn roles but still get called clerks which is a bit bizarre anyway.

Swindon area is a good example - a relatively small town like Wootton Bassett has 16 staff, some of the parishes in Swindon have around 20 staff with larger precepts. If you don't think the clerk of those deserves to earn well for those roles then that's a bit baffling - especially when compared to other industries where pay is higher for signifcantly less responsibility and often smaller skillsets.

---

Reply to clerk975:

I have intentionally set, maintained and reiterated my discussion point at smaller / rural PARISH council levels.  I would, obviously, acknowledge that town and county councils are scaled up versions and with that scaling up comes increased supervisory responsibility.  But that is not the point under discussion despite several instances of those roles being introduced as example.  The example is not under debate - the relevance of changing the parameters in an attempt to validate a point is simply a distraction.

Let's not pretend that there is some kind of unique, mysterious or high level competence required of the clerk role - regardless of the size / scale of the council.  It is a classic admin role - no big deal.

We've wandered well off track from the original post - which, incidentally, pretty much sums up the frustration of many rural parish councils where the clerk - I think we have arrived at an agreed +/- £15/hr rate - is behaving in a manner which far and away exceeds their authority and status.

It is that example of (yes, low level admin functionary) exceeding their authority and status - combined with cllrs that may be inexperienced / incapable (or suffering from coercive behaviour from the clerk) that really is the point under discussion.

---

Letsbehonest (but not necessarily correct) In response to who? ParishClerk2020 or PariahClerk2020? Basic.

---

That’s it? That’s all you’ve got?  Nothing original or even the ability to see the irony?

It was an autocorrect from spell checker - it wasn’t unnoticed, I actually thought it probably more suited....

Go back to sleep....

Answer 2

As the Personnel Committee is a formal committee, it does need to have a 'Clerk' to record the minutes but a Councillor could undertake that role for matters that relate to the actual Clerk.  From your post, I assume that the Clerk wanted to have her hours increased so surely to grease the decision wheel it would have made sense that she left the room when requested.  It seems about random that she didn't.

You mention that your Clerk is 'sensitive' and has a history of grievances but there is no indication as to whether they were legitimate issues being raised; they may well have been.  Whilst I agree that some Clerks are truly awful at their jobs, there is sadly many instances of bullying by councillors against staff.  It goes both ways and you often find that Councillors who consider themselves 'volunteers' are unwilling to take on the role of an employer and all the challenges that entails.

Comments

I can totally relate to a 'sensitive' clerk. Ours can take offence at the drop of a hat, when none was intended. Nothing that ever led to a grievance though, thank goodness. It can be quite tiring trying to handle someone with kid gloves because you do not intend any offence but know it can be taken by the slightest remark!

---

I suspect the clerk knew some Councillors were resistant to the increase. We were in a ridiculous position where some Councillors were emailing before the meeting saying 'here's what I think but I won't be able to say it in the meeting or the Clerk will cry'. Her presence in the meeting effectively silenced them.

I can't comment on all previous grievances, but the ones I am aware of were not legitimate, however they upset the councillors and led to their resignation (one referred in her resignation letter to being hauled in front of a kangaroo court).
I have been told by longer standing councillors that the clerk keeps a little black book of perceived slights.

Answer 3

A possible / partial solution here would be to hold a ballot rather than a vote.  You'd still have the potential issue of free and open debate being curtailed by the presence of the clerk but at least the vote could be held anonymously so as to avoid the potential for the employee possibly to victimise Cllr's that had not supported the vote.
Sad state of affairs.....

Answer 4

If she is making unwarranted accusations against elected officials then she needs to tackled about it, when it happened to me I self reported myself to the Monitoring Officer
I know a Councillor who was subjected to similar complaints and when they spoke to the Chair they were told the Chairs role was “ to protect the Clerk “

Councils are being held to ransom because they are scared of “ employment rights “

Answer 5

I don’t wish to wade in but I think the role is changing and the use of technology is catching up with the clerks role. Councillors are supposed to get best value for money as is the clerk. It can be very difficult in a business to undertake a organisational change and when it comes to councils even harder.

many clerks have their own routines and way of doing things but they should also be aware of working smarter not faster as the workload / parameters change.

Councillors on the other hand often bring new ways of working because they are often constantly changing in own employment.

You may find that the clerk may be sensitive to change and being outside their comfort zone with new processes but I would advise you to overhauling the role before increasing the hours. This serves two purposes if the hours need to be increased it gives the justification or if you find systems to help the clerk, it may make the job less stressful

Comments

Thank you, we are also introducing improved systems such as online booking systems for our village hall.

---

Can recommend Scribe to do accounts, hall booking, allotments and cemeteries