Quorum numbers

Question

We have a situation . In October 12 of our councillors were disqualified on bloc , not attending a meeting . Our council consists of 15 in total . There was one empty seat already ( councillor had moved out of area ) . Our local MDC put in 3  district councillors, making 5 in total .
My question is , in this situation does the 5 make a quorum ?
Look forward to answers .

Answer 1

I think this answers your question 

https://centralbeds.moderngov.co.uk/documents/b7486/Local%20Government%20Act%201972%20-%20Section%2091%20-%20Inquorate%20Council%20Thursday%2017-Sep-2015%2018.30%20COUNCIL.pdf?T=9

Out of interest were the resignations some form of protest ? 

Comments

Hi , no we did not resign, we were disqualified. It is very political. As a group we had 14 of the 15 seats . Of the 2 remaining ( 1 of our group ) was on long term sick , the other ( not of our group , brother in law to the clerk ), attended a zoom training session . We were well and truly stitched up . It was part our fault , we were doing business via email etc , COVID situation completely forgot 6 month rule. I understand the 1/3rd min 3 councillors for a quorum, but on legislation.gov.uk section 45 completely threw me . I do not understand what it means in our situation.

Answer 2

Did you receive a summons to attend the Zoom meetings along with an agenda form the Clerk?  If not then I would argue you can't be disqualified if you were prepared to attend meetings you weren't made aware of.  If so talk to the Monitoring Officer

Comments

Hi, the zoom meeting was not a council meeting , it was with our local council association just one of many for information. Our chair tried to set up a council meeting , within the 6 months , but the clerk kept putting obstacles in the way ( is it legal etc . ) then the clerk was having ‘’technical problems ‘’ setting up a zoom meeting . By then 6 months were up . Next thing we know letter from clerk telling us we were disqualified. Like I said , stitched up .

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You should approach the Monitoring Officer on the Principal Authority and ask him/her to instruct your Clerk to rescind the notices of disqualification.  If you did not receive a summons to attend a council meeting you can't be charged with non attendance.  The onus is on the Clerk to prove that meetings were actually held and that a summons was sent out and that some members attended, and to produce minutes for such a meeting.  The Clerk cannot unilaterally disqualify you but the council must resolve to do that.

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The UK Government has confirmed that it is not intending to change the law but has emphasised the ability of councils to waive the rule and/or to decide not to apply it. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government has said: A member need not automatically be disqualified if they do not attend a meeting in a period exceeding six months; the option that a council may resolve that they are not disqualified remains. As the Meetings Regulations provide that councils may now hold meetings virtually, a council is not prevented from holding such a meeting to make that resolution. In addition, during the period the Meetings Regulations’ provisions are in effect, accessibility to meetings of members is enhanced, allowing them to reduce the risk of their disqualification.

Councillors should check their attendance and make sure they attend virtual meetings.

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Hi , we sent our MDC numerous emails , ‘’ nothing to do with us , we cannot interfere with parish council ‘’ was always the reply. As I said we tried to set up meetings , the clerk kept putting obstacles in the way , we were green , just plain forgot the 6 month rule, then out of the blue all 12 of us ,chair included received letter from the clerk ,’’ you are disqualified ‘’ . We are in a highly political situation, whereby if you are not a member of this political party , you are the enemy, we are a non political group , so have to be got rid of by any means . I have no doubt there are other councils in the same situation .

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The law states: Local Government Act 1972 section 85 provides that, if a council member fails to attend any meeting for a period of six consecutive months, he/she shall cease to be a member of that council (i.e. automatic disqualification). The clerk can only carry out instructions given to them by the Parish Council, Did the council stop meetings and not restart them? or is there any other reason for the council to not hold its meetings? the clerk is only the employee of the council and can not do anything unless the council instruct them to.  Was the Chairman of the council in contact with the clerk so as to keep abreast of the situation? as like a lot of  councillors I received the white rose update and the information regarding the '6 month rule was stated in there on a number of occasions .  I read from earlier posts you won the last election by 14 -1 so how is the 'other party' to blame for this action?

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Disqualification of a Parish Councillor is much to do with the Principal Authority.  They would need to be informed of a vacancies in the first instance and the reason why the vacancy has arisen.  The act of disqualification should have been reported in Parish Council minutes. Which meeting did the non disqualified Cllrs attend that you didn't?  If there was no summons for it or no minutes for it then the whole Council should have been disqualified. In normal times the  Principal authority have to ensure notices of vacancies are posted in the appropriate places and invite electors in the appropriate wards to write and call for by elections within a given Notice period. They then have to either organise the by -Elections or inform the Parish Councils that  it can go ahead with co option.  Contact the Local Govt ombudsman & report the Principle Authority for maladministration, and copy in your MP.   The Principal Authority should have investigated the situation properly before inserting their own crony cllrs.

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Hi , our council is made up of 2 parishes , 5 seats and 10 , 15 in total . One of our group moved in July , ( 5 seat parish ) so an election scheduled for May 6th. The 2  councillors not disqualified , both on 10 seat parish, 1 our group was on long term sick , the other ( brother in law to the clerk ) , and political party member , attended a zoom meeting , not a council meeting , held by our local councillors association, for information purposes . We have appealed to everyone including our MP ( same political party ) nobody wants to know . ‘’No right of appeal ‘’ , ‘’we cannot interfere’’ etc. Our MDC is run by the same political party, and we do feel they take sides . Until you are involved as a parish councillor , you have no idea how nasty and vicious people can be , when in reality all you are there for is the betterment of your community. May 2019 our group won 14 of the 15 seats , the parishioners fed up the council being run by a family group , and I do mean family .

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Is there any family members-ties in the group you won the election with of 14 to 1  sometimes members of councils do have family ties especially in smaller villages. If the 14 members were of the same group it shouldn't be a problem if the clerk and brother in law are the same political stance this wouldn't make any difference to the running of the council as it would still be a majority vote of 14 to 1. Were the last 'family group' elected in or co-opted? the clerk can only do what the council instruct them to do.

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A zoom meeting , not a council meeting , attended by some of your local councillors association for information purposes is not a council meeting. The Clerk has acted unlawfully if he/she has taken the view that the Zoom meeting counts as a meeting of the Parish Council and failed to notify those that attended it that they are also disqualified.
Whilst it might be initially futile, notify the MO that the so called "remaining" Cllrs have been disqualified. Add that if the MO says it is nothing to do with him/her and refuses to participate in acting on notification of their vacancies, tell them that the inaction will be referred to the LGO and copy in the Chief Executive of the Principal Authority too, who is the head of the paid service. This should be reported to the external auditor too as well as the Local Gov Ombudsman for maladministration.

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What are the details surrounding the dates of the Parish Council meetings.  Did the council decide to stop meetings due to Covid and arrange future meetings by Zoom which were not organised. Out of the 14 councillors were any of those experienced with the governance of councils?  I have said previously the clerk can only work within the councils policies and decision made by the council, if the clerk works out of this remit they would be acting unlawfully.  I am sure your local MDC would have looked at the situation lawfully and only come to the conclusion it did after a full and detailed   enquiry was carried out, as they too could be questioned on the decision it took.

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Let me make it clear , we are not blaming ‘’ the other party ‘’, for our disqualification ref. the 6 month rule . We did not attend a meeting , we simply forgot the rule . This is not an excuse it is a reason . This was our fault.Yes I received White Rose update, once , the mention was I believe on page 3/4 . What concerns us was the actions of the clerk . About 2 weeks before the end of 6 month the chair and others attempted to set up a meeting, an urgent situation needed sorting , the clerk was on sick , clerk immediately came back to work, sent email to chair and councillors, very vitriolic , that it should not go ahead various reasons, chair told clerk he would take the advice and cancel. Clerk was then told to set up zoom meeting , technical problems, more technical problems, then the 6 months were up . Then the disqualification letter from clerk . Not 1 of the 12 disqualified , inc. chair , knew anything about this prior, no council meeting or councillors involvement, unless maybe the 1 non group councillor not disqualified brother in law , the clerk claims that they acted on advice from MDC , MDC say nothing to do with them , they simply give advice. Would you not think that a clerk , working on behalf of the council, keeping it on the right track legally, and with regarding legislation, would have informed chair , or councillors , regarding 6 month rule? Bottom line you learn from your mistakes.

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Many thanks , we will act on this .

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Hi , our group were pretty green when it comes to council business, on 23rd March we decided to suspend all council meetings until further notice . Unfortunately this was not a formal council meeting. Towards the end of the 6 month period we asked clerk to organise zoom , but the clerk kept coming back with problem after problem , then the 6 months were up , and our disqualification letters. Our MDC say they simply give advice, do not instruct, and cannot interfere with parish councils . The clerk says nothing to do with them , it’s the MDC . Who do you believe ?

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Another reply , just a little background , ‘’ the other party ‘’ have run the parish council 100% for as long as anyone can remember, except for one term early 2000 , for example there was a co- option a few years ago , an individual who wanted to become a councillor was told only party members were on the council , they joined the party and were co-opted . You have to know the people involved, and their attitude to the council to understand the full picture. At an annual parish meeting one of their councillors threatened violence to another councillor in front of a full parish hall . A few weeks ago on you tube there was a clip of a parish meeting that went viral , in comparison that was ‘’ listen with mother’’ . I am sure there must be other parish councils just like ours . It’s a shame .

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From what I can read I feel sorry for the clerk to be honest as it sounds like they must have been at their wits end and probably off work with stress by the sound of it. why didn't the council work with the clerk to call a meeting earlier and not leave it until the last minute as I have said the clerk can only work within the councils policies and instructions from the council, there is a saying a good workman doesn't blame his tools and personally  that seems the case here.  Does your clerk hold the Cilca qualification? Did any of the councillors have previous experience as councillors and you said one of your 'group members' was on sick leave from council duties so did this appear as an agenda item at a previous meeting regarding the 6 month rule? regarding the letter the clerk sent out about the arranged meeting did the clerk send out the agenda for the meeting? (if not if they were still on sick leave) was the agenda legal if it wasn't then the council could have been in serious trouble if there was anything dealing with finances on.  its quite a confusing situation all-round

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I find it strange when you say the other party have run the parish council for as long as anyone can remember, have there not been any elections in your village where the residents who are registered can vote for who they want to represent them, co options can only happen if 10 residents don't ask for an election, maybe the residents were happy with who were on? politics is a strange thing.

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Not strange really, we live in an area where wearing a particular colour rosette gets you the vote regardless. Of course there have been elections , but wearing that colour rosette got you the vote every time .Until 2019 , times change , parishioners are fed up with the status quo , unfortunately that colour rosette believes it has the god given right to ‘’ be in charge ‘’, yes you are probably right , politics is a strange thing , however politics should have nothing to do with parish councils. Yes I know that’s a naive statement .

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I can understand what you are saying about political colours but who people stand for has no baring on parish council law all colours have to abide by the law set out by the government.

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This thread started out as to what numbers make up a quorum in our particular situation . It has developed into something much wider . Yes we made mistakes , but unless you are in our shoes it is impossible to understand a very confusing situation  regarding individuals , history etc. As I said we made mistakes , we are  a group of amateurs, 4 previous councillors , but none of us fully understood the technicalities of council . We relied on the clerk to keep us on the straight and narrow, yes clerk is cilca  qualified , therefore professional . We were councillors for no other reason than to do what we thought best for our community . Maybe we should just let the previous team  get on with it  if that’s what the parish want .

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I understand what you say , however it seems from my short experience with the events of the last few months , that there is no law regarding parish councils . It seems to me that parish councils are a law unto themselves . Unless they blatantly fiddle money or commit fraud , or other serious criminal act , they can do as they wish . Of course I may be wrong , but that is how it seems .

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After gleaning through some of the comments previously made, I read it as a number of councillors blaming the clerk when the clerk is an employee of the council to do the councils bidding, yes the clerk is there to offer advice and guidance but not there to nurse maid councillors, this is where I have found as an experienced councillor the relationship with the chairman and clerk is imperative. the best councils work closely with the clerk and not against them which looks like this could have been what has happened in this case as it has been repeated the clerk and brother in law but as I said with a majority of 14 to 1 this should not have posed any problem. i am quite disturbed with your last comment saying parish councils are a law unto themselves there is a book available for anyone to read which is the Arnold Baker local council administration, a lot of councillors behaviour has also been overlooked with the standards board not having any power to deal with parish/town councillors behaviour unless its of an extremely illegal act such as fraud as you have said.  Did any of the of the old and new councillors carry out any training through its local council association as these are a great source of advice but like I say politics is a strange and wonderful thing.

Answer 3

What a palaver! This raises so many issues, but I'll focus on the future.

The role of a temporary councillor (i.e. your principal authority's appointees) is to manage the council's affairs until sufficient new members can be appointed to resume local control. The legislation requires co-opted vacancies to be filled "at the earliest opportunity". So if you're all willing to be co-opted, this must be an agenda item at the next meeting. If they refuse to do this, report them to the monitoring officer.

Comments

Hi , the co- option notice is already out  , our names are in , but it will be a miracle if any of our group are re- instated , considering the make up of the district councillors as appointees. We are not in their ‘’gang’’. After the May 2019 elections they were wiped out 14 - 1 and they took it very personally. We shall see .

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They don't have a choice. They are there in a purely administrative capacity. If you qualify to be a councillor, which you obviously do, and they have no more candidates than vacancies, they must co-opt.

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Hi , I think the next parish council meeting is on the 15th. March . I will leave comments on the outcome.

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Surely they are putting the cart before the horse  first you notify the electorate of the vacancies and invite 10 of them to ask for an election and if nothing happens within the time limit then and only then can the cooption process begin
So we’re the notices posted ?

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I think you might have missed a trick here. With 10 signatures asking for an election, an election has to be held, then stand for election. If elected, then there is nothing they can do, apart from putting up their own candidates of course.  It will cost the parish of course, and all the rigmarole of standing for election of course, but worth it I would suggest.