Should the public have to contact the clerk to be able to attend a zoom meeting

Question

Hi All, our parish council have decided to now hold council meetings on zoom, we have had are 3 days notice of time day etc of the first meeting,  the clerk has also advertised this meeting on the parish council notice board, (but nowhere else as they don’t want to many public at attend) so the public have been notified, on this public notice the clerk has stated if a member of the public wishes to take part (or I guess view the zoom meeting) they must contact the clerk to get the meeting id / login code etc, is this the correct procedure? I feel that the clerk is screening who can take part / view this public meeting, as it’s a public parish council meeting surely all information ie login codes, meeting id etc should be on all meeting notifications so if a member of the public wishes to attend / view they can without asking? after all said and done aren’t all council’s suppose to be / have totally transparency?

Answer 1

The invitation to join the meeting should be published on the agenda along with the id.  The rules about all council meetings being open to the public remain even if the meeting is held on zoom or other video applications.

Answer 2

That is what we have been advised to do by our CALC.

Comments

It is unfortunate that too many councils feel that they are there to carry out whatever business they deem fit whilst ignoring what they are actually elected to do which is serve the needs and will of the community that elected them. They ignore much of what is in their own documentation and requirements of the localism act which enshrines and requires complete transparency in all they do. Unfortunately in this country we have a culture of public apathy to what is going on in our names until something major breaks into the news and so it is with Parish Councils. Even the required allowing of public attendance at meetings is straight jacketed as far as speaking is concerned and written communication is censored to and presented as a completely sanitise semi-complaint.All but the most determined comments are effectively knocked into the long grass. If you push for an answer then of course the policy dictates that you receive a "vexatious" stamp and ignored.
 It seems that many councils look upon the public as some sort of inconvenience to their works. Bit like modern day retailer's complaints departments.
High time the Parish Council system received a complete overhaul or at very least a 50000 mile service and an MOT!

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I am sorry that you feel that way but I do feel that I need to stand up for the very many parish councils who go the extra mile for their community with very little feedback and a total lack of interest from residents.  The parish council that I am proud the clerk for is at the front of environmental policies, projects for community assets and protecting the parish from excessive development as well as taking a strong lead in the current pandemic.
We do publicise our meetings on our noticeboards and websites and we have a list of meetings that goes out with every newsletter that we produce (3 times a year).  For that we get no residents attending and no interest shown.  We engage with the local business community and fought tooth and nail for funds to make our High Street safe with the lifting of lockdown.  But again, they won't even attend meetings.

And for that, we are dumped on, criticised no matter what we do and are lumped together with parish councils that should be ashamed of themselves for being private fiefdoms for a bored and retired chair who believes that its all under their control.

I understand your frustration but please don't tar all councils with the same brush.

Best wishes.

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Thanks for your response and you and your council should be congratulated for doing it properly and the frustration of apathy shown by the majority is understandable.
Your efforts as you know are in the minority and people tend to look at the councils we have both described as the norm which in the public's perceptions justifies them resigning their responsibilities to ensure their council is applauded for good works and held to account for their failures.
I am not tarring anyone the tarring is done by the communities. The attitude of many councils is that they are only accountable at the ballot box every 4 years which allows them to do what they like until then without any censures. Monitoring Officers and their "service" use is a joke that impresses no one especially those councillors reported to the MO.
It appears we are in agreement in many matters

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Well said MrsA.  My four councils try very hard to do the right thing.  We don't always succeed, but we learn from our mistakes.

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I thank you for your answers, I must say I’m finding it very difficult to understand how something that should be straight forward (ie publicising a login code for the public to participate in Meeting) Isn’t, my local association of local councils say this is a grey area, Yet I can’t see why it is? Is it written down somewhere in recent government legislation that a link must be published on an agenda? If It is I would then have something to take to this meeting to say it should be published in the agenda, many thanks for all your input.

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As far as I'm aware, the legislation doesn't specify either way. NALC guidance favours publication. Many of us were put off by well-publicised early Zoom issues with malicious invaders in meetings. For that reason, I have avoided publishing the access details of my meetings and asked members of the public to contact me beforehand. Where individuals are regular visitors, I have sent them the access codes without waiting to be asked. Apart from these regular visitors, we rarely see anybody at our meetings, so it hasn't really been an issue for us.

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Thank you for your input Dave, I can see your point, I have to ask, if we were back to normal and hold meetings in village halls etc, would you have someone standing at the door like a bouncer, as councillors we are there to represent the people of the parish, it just doesn’t sit well with me, when someone is judging who can attend public parish council meeting, forgive me it’s not personal.

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I think that the difference is that somebody from elsewhere in the country, or perhaps even the other side of the world, is unlikely to travel to my little parish council's meeting place, so the bouncer may not be necessary.

As Clerk, I never saw my role as judging who may attend. Anybody with a legitimate interest was welcomed, whether parishioner or not, but I simply asked them why they wished to attend and whether or not they wished to speak. We do, at all times, ask members of the public to submit their questions beforehand where possible, although we would never deny somebody the opportunity to speak if they failed to do so. It speeds up business by enabling us to provide an immediate answer in many cases, which is a significant benefit in a parish where the Council meets only six times each year.

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I have just tried a Google search for "Parish Council Zoom id" and there are hundreds of them, possibly thousands. I could have visited every single one and expressed views that are unacceptable in a civilised society or displayed some of the less appealing parts of my anatomy. Whilst I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, there are those who would, and did.

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The host of a zoom meeting, which in my council's case is either the the chair or clerk, has the facility to mute any individual present at the meeting who is felt to be speaking out of turn.  It adds an element of control that is not usually available to the chair at the old style meetings and frustrates those who join meetings for mischievous purposes only.  My council by the way is very similar to Mrs Absters in that it attempts to fully engage with the public as much as possible.  We take the stance that it much less work in the long run to be fully open and transparent in all dealings than try to keep track of what is for public knowledge and what is not.

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I wish my fellow councillors would take that view with regards to the public, they seem to have the opinion that the public are the enemy and illiterate, and therefore  doesn’t really want them at meetings, I and one other councillor feel quite strongly and passionate about the parishioners  Having total knowledge of everything (ie we’re on there side) but we feel we are banging are heads on a brick wall, I recall at one meeting last year one councillor didn’t like what I said and said to me “ you blxxdx what taken outside and shoot” I just turned around and said “you can say that to a fellow councillor you’ve broken the code of conduct” and obviously when I tried to take it further he and others denied all knowledge of it, so you can see what a struggle we have, thank you all for your comments anyway.

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Quormpc,quite correct that the level of control of those taking part in PC meetings has never been higher and should therefore remove ANY need for prior "selection" of attendees. Let us hope that as with the church experience of increased congregations for virtual services, online meetings made easier  for those attending the PC meetings should be encouraged from their own homes. Online meetings should actually become the "norm" for engagement and transparency with the public by parish councils and recording (Chair only has to click a button)  of the proceedings to replace edited minutes as the official record. We are after all in the 21st century. Then perhaps events as illustrated by PTC&CJS will be exiled to the history books where such behaviour and attitudes belong.

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I totally agree with that, people should be encouraged to come Along to meetings and take part in the meetings etc,

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In my parishes, going online has excluded almost all of the parishioners who normally attend our meetings. Almost without exception, they fall into the over 65 non-computer literate group that comprises up to 30% of the population. To put that into context, we're small rural farming parishes with levels of literacy and numeracy well below national average and age profile way above national average. Historically, education was a much lower priority than gathering the harvest, so children were withdrawn from school to work in the fields, with many of them failing to complete even the basic minimum levels of state education.

We're making every effort to return to face-to-face meetings this month, including hiring larger venues to allow us to offer a socially-distanced experience.

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Whilst non computer ownership and use may be low in certain members of the population and supports physical meetings there is no earthly reason why PC cannot do both at the same time. Video conference their public meetings. Many have now opened up to virtual meetings (which technically they are not being conference links) No reason why a PC meeting cannot be held online and physically at the same time with the added bonus of recording accuracy. The benefits must outweigh the effort. As said many churches are seeing the increase in interest and attendance and are continuing services in the flesh and broadcast at the same time along with "replays " for those who missed it. How about a PC "catch up" channel on the pc website for the community to access what they missed and be fully informed? Time to think outside the traditional PC box.

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Absolutely agree with you Mentorman but please give us lowly part-time clerks a chance to stop the world spinning - we are currently having to deal with the opening of playgrounds and ensuring that the equipment is regularly cleaned somehow of snot and spittle from the little loves using it!!! :-)

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Well said MrsA. Perhaps we should wrap the little darlings in clingfilm before they enter our sanitised play areas so that they take all their bodily fluids home with them!!

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Mrs Abster by no means lowly part time clerks but basis of an efficient council who I have said for many years have been had on the cheap. Since the PC's have moved into the realm of carrying out their duties under near county council bureaucratic requirements the renumeration of the extra burden placed on clerks has fallen well behind their status. Driven, in my opinion, and aided and abetted by local NALC offices who "advise". What is conveniently forgotten that they also "advise" that it is for councils to decide what they do. Apparently this somehow doesn't stretch to paying the clerks over the suggested pay scale. I say pay your clerk what they are worth to the council not get them on the cheap by clowning on their dedication!

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Umm, wages interesting subject, our clerk has no form of cilca training what so ever, she has refused to go on any training courses apart form one, which was “the roll or the clerk“ done by Nalc, yet she demands £14 an hour, which she then puts up each year then says that’s the going rate??? she does 15 hours a week, I don’t know anyone that’s on that high hourly rate in a full time job with full training!!!!!

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Don't forget that the PC employ the Clerk not the other way around. Mutual agreement is the basis for a good efficient working agreement. Neither employer nor employee should engage in intimidation of the other.

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You might look at what other councils do on pay. There is an interesting document here which gives a clue...
https://pencombegrouppc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/2017.10-Salary-Review.pdf

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Often seem to find inconsistencies in terms of local association advise.  With suitable controls in place (including but not limited to a waiting room) no reason why the meeting codes should fixed to the Agenda.  Ask yourself in ordinary times would you put "Email me and ill send you the address of where we are physically meeting but do so a day before.. Or else ill not bother replying"

Answer 3

Is this not a sensible precaution to avoid 'zoom bombing' of the meeting? 

In addition, I assume Parish Councils still have to keep a record of those attending? At our recent PC meeting, some-one joined as "My iPad" and refused to put their camera on, giving them a level of anonymity not available in a traditional public meeting.

Comments

The public are under no obligation whatsoever to identify themselves whilst observing what is a public meeting.  I always remember the first meeting i attended back then as a member of the public "WHO ARE YOU... WHAT DO YOU WANT... WHERE DO YOU LIVE... ".. Councils then wonder why so few observe.  Officers should simply note the number of members of the public as part of the minutes.

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Very interesting, our parish council requires parishioners to sign an attendance book.