Is the budget ‘private’

Question

Hi all.  Had our budget presented last meeting - in a closed/private session. Is it even lawful to do this, in private session I mean.  I’d have thought hearing how councillors received the budget is of core interest to the public. I want to bring up my concern about this, but want to know if it’s common practice, required practice, or an indication of something very peculiar going on

Answer 1

Commonality of poor procedure does not make it any less inappropriate.
There has to be a motion and a majority vote to exclude the press and the public.
What case was presented and what justification was accepted?

The time to question such proposals is when they are tabled.
How did you vote in the motion to exclude the press and public?

Comments

Thank you for your response.
There was no such discussion or vote, and thus no reason provided or any opportunity for councillors to vote.
I suspect, as the finance committee already comprises a majority (6 members)  of our council, they’d have achieved their aim, anyway. But at least Minutes would record (if those ‘against’ insisted) that not all councillors were in favour. The public could then surmise, at least, that not all their councillors are party to the blatant exclusionist policies of the council…

I imagine it is now well past raising a point of order?
Do you have any thoughts on what action could be taken? Again, thank you so much for your clear and concise response.

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If there wasn't a specific motion and majority vote to exclude the press and public then the press and public cannot be compelled to leave the open public meeting.
Were there any press or public present?  Did they get up and leave when asked to do so - you need someone to say "no, I am entitled to attend a public meeting and you (the council) have a procedure to follow before closing the meeting."

You can't 'undo' what has happened but you can prevent it happening again.  You need a member of public to decline the invitation to leave when the closed session is proposed (if the processes  not properly followed) and there is no mechanism, other than abandonment of the meeting, for a council to compel them to leave.


It's a blunt tool but actually the most effective means of preventing the abuse of the very specific privilege of a council to exclude press and public.

You can also raise the procedural anomaly with the internal / external auditor - for all the good that will do and you could also ask for a named vote if/when the next occasion arises.  In the 'debate' preceding the proposal to exclude press and public you can raise the procedural anomalies prior to the vote taking place and then have the votes for / against recorded in the minutes - again, for all the good that will do since it sounds like a majority are poorly informed or apathetic.
It is an unfortunate reality that "someone" has to have the kahoonas to say "no" and then to act upon it.  The "system" does not provide sufficient control to prevent poor practice.

Answer 2

There have been other posters recently stating that their councils are doing the same thing. So it's not unusual.

In their model Publication Scheme the ICO have listed 'finalised budget'. So the ICO expect councils to publish to the public the budget once it has been finalised, but not the draft versions.

Answer 3

The list of categories of information that may be deemed exempt, and therefore eligible for discussion in closed session, is contained in Schedule 12A of the Local Government Act 1972.

For all of these categories, there is an overriding condition that must be met, which allows the public and press to be excluded from that part of the meeting "if and so long as, in all the circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information." How anybody could seek to apply this to the budget and precept is beyond me.

I am so frustrated by the attitude of the many councils that seek to conduct routine business in private. My approach has always been to publish everything that I would be required to publish should a member of the public submit a Freedom of Information request. That's why I never receive FOI requests. We don't have finance committees, so we conduct every part of our budget and precept setting in public in our regular council meetings. The supporting documents the councillors receive with the agenda are also posted on the council websites for the public to see. I publish my salary details, allowances, pension contributions, expenses, every month. Lay it all on the table and avoid the conspiracy theories. The majority of the money we spend comes from our residents through their Council Tax. Surely we can grant them the right to know what we do with it?

Somehow, collectively, we need to eradicate the "Do we have to tell them?" mindset in favour of "Why would we not tell them?"

Comments

Brilliant yet so simple!

Many councils seem to expend more time, effort, resource attempting to find ways to justify exemptions, minimise responses or justify refusals than they would need simply to deliver openness and avoid FoIs...

Answer 4

I had a complaint made by councillors from the controlling group on my parish council against me just 6 days after being elected for "breaching confidentiality" by telling residents that the parish council intended to put up their precept. The clerk said that because it said confidential on the spreadsheet I wasn't allowed to say anything about it. I disagreed and that wasn't very well received but they were in the wrong.