How important are standing orders?

Question

What happens when parish councillors are not interested in reading or understanding their own standing orders despite not being new councillors and the standing orders they have adopted are not even correct and wasn't correctly adopted at a meeting in the first place?

Can a council act correctly?

Answer 1

Very important as they lay out how the council will carry out their day to day business and how decisions are made. They are unique to each PC and decided and adopted by them unlike codes of conduct which are designed to be a standard applied to all.

They should be well thought out and give a firm foundation for the whole council to work together to achieve their aims.

Comments

We have councillors in our meeting openly admitting they do not not what standings order are and because of them a lot of mistakes are make and a lot of time is taken up having to tell councillors what the orders are

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How can they take part in a meeting when they do not know what the laid down procedures are for taking part? The Chair has the obligation to ensure that members of the council follow standing orders and can negate points and matters raised by members if they do not comply with standing orders. If they do not follow standing orders then a councillor cannot carry out the duty they have been elected and required to carry out. Question has to asked ( and answered )"why are your here?"

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That’s my view but please look at my reply below. Seems a lost cause to me!

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Wow that’s a shock

Answer 2

In reality the answer is nothing.

No one really cares what parish councils get up to, so no one enforces anything.

In theory if you don't follow your standing orders you could potentially make decisions that are unlawful and so open to legal challenge. But in reality no one wants to pay the legal costs of such a challenge.

Comments

Unfortunately I think you’re right. The parish council hasn’t had a chair which meant that the clerk called an extraordinary meeting where they adapted the standing orders which contained a lot of mistakes as they didn’t read it through properly. Had they read the standing orders they would have known that a) they must have a chair and b) the clerk can’t call extraordinary meetings. I’m disappointed by the county association as they said it didnt matter that the council haven’t read or understood the standing orders as the intent was there - which I don’t understand as a) they aren’t new councillors and b) the clerk asked them 3 times to read the standing orders prior to the parish meeting. After a discussion at the parish meeting it was agreed that they couldn’t be adopted as not enough councillors had read or understood them so I’m struggling to understand the intent. It kind of makes a mockery of the policies and procedures that councils must do if they are optional.

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County associations are funded by fees paid by the parish councils. They don't want to bite the hands that feed them so will always advise councils whatever they want to hear.

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I guess I had expected better but clearly that’s not the case

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I think this is a little unfair to county associations; even the worst ones and that's saying something.  However, I am a huge supporter of compulsory training and qualified staff and if nothing else this exchange supports that.  Councillors sometimes become councillors for the wrong reasons, take no interest in the role and fail to take it seriously.  Clerks sometimes become clerks for the wrong reasons, take no interest in the role and fail to take it seriously.  Having both in the same council is a sad double whammy for the population they're supposed to be serving.

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Which buy is unfair? One if the councillors was also offended when I suggested that they do some training. They are only volunteers and I shouldn’t be insisting anything from them! I am a qualified clerk and started to help another council as they did t have a clerk - which is hardly surprising as they don’t seem to listen to their clerks.

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I'm talking solely about the comment from AR that county associations are funded by councils and don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.
Their comment that it doesn't matter if councillors are not aware of standing orders is technically true in so far as it is up to councillors to decide whether to properly prepare for their meetings and their role and although I do despair at those who don't; their decisions are still valid decisions.
I am also a qualified clerk (now retired) and now a councillor for my home council.  I recognise the value of the advice given to me but advice from the clerk is just that - advice and not a mandatory ruling.  If as a councillor I ignore that advice, that is my (perhaps ill considered) right.

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Okay - that’s the problem right there - because they haven’t read or understood the standing orders they didn’t appoint a chair. Which meant that the clerk had to call an extraordinary meeting to adopt the standing orders but without any councillors having a clue and lots of mistakes and without knowing what they meant - this seems very odd and pointless

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There's a view that parish councils don't have to adopt standing orders.  All that standing orders do is present the "rules of the council" in a single document but there are sections (in bold if you're using the model set for reference) that are legislative requirements so whether adopted or not, would apply.  The rest of what is usually found in a single document are sufficiently flexible to enable councils to amend them to suit their needs.  Some elements of standing orders have their origin in case law too but decisions on how things are done in councils can be made by the council itself.  The single document is useful and to be recommended but the council doesn't cease to exist if standing orders are not agreed or for that matter understood.  The requirement to appoint a chair is contained within the Local Government Act so whether standing orders are adopted or not, that is a requirement albeit one that can change for each meeting (not to be recommended!).   
It is correct that the clerk does not have the power to convene an extraordinary meeting but do standing orders need to adopted at an extraordinary meeting?  I'd suggest any ordinary (or an additional ordinary meeting if appropriate) would be sufficient and a clerk does have the power to convene an ordinary meeting.
Not trying to be difficult here but just saying that sometimes you have to take a pragmatic approach to these things.

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Thanks for your comment - they will need to adopt the standing orders for the audit don’t they? That’s the problem - because they hadn’t read the standing orders they did t know that the clerk can’t call an extraordinary meeting and that they need a chair. I’m not expecting them to know the legal references but they should really have an understanding on the rules. No standing orders don’t need to be adopted at an extraordinary - I think they did this because they didn’t have a chair. Again had they read the standing orders they would know this. Some don’t seem to realise that they are t just volunteers but have a responsibility to represent the people - which does include knowing the rules.

Answer 3

According to what you have posted and the lack of interest by your councillors( who cannot even elect a chair) I repeat my question" why are you on the council???) and members of your community need to express that they do not tolerate such failure by their representatives and hold a parish meeting to show their displeasure and requirement for standards of councillors to be improved. Propose & pass a vote of no confidence in the council and register it with the LA. Keep doing this as much as required as the PC must organise and advertise and fund a requested Parish Meeting.

But of course if the community has as much enthusiasm as your council then you need to find those in the community who do care. Apathy is a big enemy these days

Comments

Thanks for your reply that’s really helpful and indeed I asked the question myself. I actually think the main reason they are in the council because it’s a bit of a laugh and also so they can block any increase in the precept - even if it means the council has to take out a loan and pay interest.

Also alarming is that the county association asked to see my email where I explained the importance of standing orders (which a councillor was offended by) and the chair forwarded it onto them - and doesn’t see why that was wrong. Their understanding of standing orders and GDPR is quite alarming - especially disappointed by tbe association who I thought should know better!
You’ve hit it on the head with next comment - they have never done any community engagement and no one even knows who they are. They have a website and do the bare minimum.

Answer 4

Just tell us all what the name of the council is and we can have a look at their current and previous AGARs.
That should be good for a laugh...

Comments

They were in the lower and have just gone upto the middle section and don’t seem to understand that more will be audited such as policies. They didn’t even have employment contracts which the auditor did pick up on