COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY

Question

How and when am I as a Councillor bound by collective responsibility?    Because we don't include reserves in our precept calculations I opposed the recommended figure at a recent Finance   meeting .  The majority however accepted it .

The final decision now goes to Full Council .  Can I speak and vote against it there or must I abstain?

Answer 1

If you are unhappy with a decision being made at a meeting in which you are participating, you may call for a recorded vote. This would place your objection in the minutes and on the permanent public record. In the case of a committee, it would also highlight your concerns to the council when they meet to ratify the decision of the committee.

Comments

But come the Full Council meeting how can I vote?  Do I have to follow the collective decision of the delegated committee or can  I abstain?  Or because it is a Full Council (FC)  meeting can I vote against?  As far as I am concerned para 4 of s101 allows the FC to retain the right to opine on any decisions which relates to its devolved  functions and I believe at such meetings I vote as a FC member not a delegated Committee member.

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The vote belongs to you and you may do as your conscience dictates whether than is for or against, or an abstention on the matter under consideration.  End of.  As DtC correctly states, you can demand a recorded vote while the issue is still under consideration which will be recorded in the minutes.

Answer 2

You are NEVER bound by the collective decision of others.
If you have properly considered the rationale for the way you choose to vote (in any circumstance) you will never be bound to speak in favour or cast a subsequent vote in support of a motion you have previously been out voted on.
Your opinion is your own and should never be superseded by the majority.
Whilst a majority vote may set the decision / policy / outcome, your personal consideration of that vote does not change, or bind you to it, just because others saw it differently.
You may be bound to the outcome but you should never be bound to overtly support the decision of others if you don’t agree with it.
It is a complete nonsense when people suggest a Cllr should be bound by the decisions they don’t agree with.
Budget is a good example. If committee make a recommendation to full council then it is full council that makes the decision if you are a member of the council you have an equal vote as anyone else.

Answer 3

You can vote  against and ask for the vote to be recorded as if things go wrong you will be tarred by the same brush

Out of interest your question doesn’t make it clear if you have no reserves or just that they are ignored which if they were static mathematically wouldn’t make much difference
But you would expect a Parish Council to have a reserve policy and the RFO to justify the amounts every year when the budget is discussed

Comments

Reserves have for years IMHO been used to park money in.   For years I campaigned that some were unlawfully  held and recently (after an independent opinion was sought by a new and uncertain clerk ) I  have managed to get  nearly £100k removed.   However come precept setting time only the year round budget is included in the monies required calculations .  This means  a detailed review  of reserves will not immediately be carried out.   As such   of course there is no means of funding any reserves increase -if it is needed.  Incidentally instead considering refunding any of the £100k it was grabbed and vired to general reserves .  Our precept is mow proposing a 35% increase .  This "separation" of reserves to me takes it out of limelight and yes you are right we do need a reserves policy but as with most things changing old habits is "one step at a time.".

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From what you describe, your internal auditor needs to be sacked and you should read the Joint Practitioners Guide which will provide you with the authoritative guidance you can quote: https://www.nalc.gov.uk/library/our-work/jpag/3859-practitioners-guide-2023/file

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I wrote to the IA and he essentially said "get lost".   The Guidelines' I believe need re visiting and becoming more prescriptive . Para 5.24 talks of budget setting whereas it should perhaps read "precept setting".   There are lots of people who think the budget consists of just the year round budget .  This lack of direction/certainty leads to people like our Finance Committee Chairman/clerk  saying we can set the precept by whatever method we choose

Answer 4

Advice on asking for the votes to be recorded is exceptionally sound  is power a councillor has to record their objection to a motion.
What is forgotten by many is that when the council meets to agree the presentation of the accounts to external auditors  the responsibility passes to the councillors individually and severally and not the RFO or internal auditor. So minuiting that a councillor has voted against such an action could be the basis for exemption from that liability.

Comments

Just asking the question...and what liability might that be.?..   What sanctions are available for any "mistakes " made

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It could be that ultimately councillors could be held responsible for any fraud perpetrated by say the RFO. It would be for those accusing a fraud to prove those liable but you cannot get away from the fact than councillors are responsible for their actions and decisions. In some situations inaction against something that is wrong is tantamount to supporting it.

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Can you please explain why and it what circumstances a councillor "could be held responsible for any fraud perpetrated by say the RFO".

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Forgive me but what "personal" liability passes to a councillor in the circumstances you have described?

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Yes, in “theory” responsibility might be laid at the door of the corporate whole (possibly excluding those that were noted as objecting) but frankly, who cares?

No really, who cares?


There isn’t a body corporate which seems to take any particular ownership of PC / TC behaviour.
MOs generally don’t seem to care (although a LA is a prosecuting authority), NALC / CALC seem more likely to support a clerk than a Cllr with a concern (they seem to have little interest in Cllr concerns let alone if it were a member of public), SLCC are there for clerks not Cllrs, police aren’t interested, IA and EA couldn’t give a monkeys…


So really, who cares?  Unless a concerned party is independently wealthy in sufficient scale to launch a civil action….


It simply isn’t possible to engage someone that cares!