Why was my proposal disallowed at meeting?

Question

At our council meeting last night I had a proposal that the chair stated had been resolved by a committee and therefore could not be heard at full council under the standing orders. I argued that if that was the case why had the clerk allowed its inclusion on the agenda? Our standing orders do not specifically identify that resolutions passed at a committee are subject to the same 6 month rule and I contend that the chair acted improperly and the clerk did not advise correctly and that my proposal still needs to be debated and the committee resolution (for works that will cost the council money) needs to be stayed until proper debate has occurred. 

Our standing orders read 

7 PREVIOUS RESOLUTIONS

1. A resolution shall not be reversed within six months except either by a special motion, which requires written notice by at least four councillors to be given to the Proper Officer in accordance with standing order 9, or by a motion moved in pursuance of the recommendation of a committee or a sub-committee.

2. When a motion moved pursuant to standing order 7(a) has been disposed of, no similar motion may be moved for a further six months.

Answer 1

If the terms of reference of the committee allow it to make spending decisions, the matter should not be discussed at a full council meeting. If the committee may only make recommendations, the council must make the final decision.

Comments

Thank you - there are no published terms of reference that I can locate for he committees?

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It sounds as though you have your work cut out here. If you're using the model standing orders, para 4d states that:
d The Council may appoint standing committees or other committees as may be necessary, and:
i. shall determine their terms of reference;
Para 5j sets out the business of the Annual Meeting, including:
v. Review of delegation arrangements to committees, sub-committees, staff and other local authorities;
vi. Review of the terms of reference for committees;
Check the minutes of last May's Annual Meeting to see whether these reviews took place.

It is good practice for councils to publish their policies and procedures on their website and if you have adopted the Information Commissioner's Model Publication Scheme (and if not, why not?!), it refers specifically to "Committee and sub-committee terms of reference" being available.

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Thank you. A lot of work to unravel what's going on here. Thank you though.

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If, as it appears, we do not have terms of reference for committees - certainly none are published anywhere and no one can point me to them - presumably the Previous Resolution clause in the Standing Orders would only cover Full Council Meetings and not committees? Further, this presumably means the proposal at the estate committee to task the clerk with receiving quotes and spending up to £3888 on works can be debated at full council.- although my proposal was to do something else that would save several thousand pounds as an alternative option but was refused a debate.

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If you have committees with no terms of reference or delegated powers, they serve no purpose whatsoever. They can't make any decisions. In effect, it's no different from a group of you having a chat over a pint in the village pub. Are agendas and minutes published for their meetings and are the public allowed to attend?

The previous resolution clause applies to both the council and its committees. Once the council has delegated its decision-making role to a committee, it has no further role in those matters, other than to note the decisions, usually by simply noting the minutes with no discussion allowed.

Non-members of a committee may attend its meetings if they wish to contribute to an item on the agenda, so your proposal could have formed part of the original committee discussion if a sufficiently-detailed agenda had been published to enable you to understand what would be discussed. I realise that we may be drifting into a parallel universe here, but I'm just offering my thoughts on how these matters might be addressed in the future.

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I have now been sent the terms of reference which states :
The business of the meeting shall be:
The business of the Estates Committee is to consider policy issues in relation to, and to scrutinise the operation of, the physical building and infrastructure assets that the Town Council owns or for which it is responsible and to make recommendations to the Council accordingly.
This remit covers a broad spectrum, from time to time the Council may have specific issues for the Committee to consider, and other relevant issues may arise. FromtimetotimetheCouncilmaydevolvedecisionmakingoncertainissuestothe Estates Committee. Reference should also be made to the NTTC Standing Orders and NTTC Finance Regulations for any other delegated authority items.
From time to time the Council may agree the setting up of advisory committees or working groups who will have their own remit but will normally report initially to the Estates Committee.
The list of assets referred to in a) above may change from time to time, but as at May 2020 consists of the following:
In the finance Regulations Document it states
4.1. Expenditure on revenue items may be authorised up to the amounts included for that class of expenditure in the approved budget. This authority is to be determined by:
• the full council for all items over £12,500.
• a duly delegated committee of the council for items over £1000; or
• the Clerk/RFO, in accordance with the Scheme of Delegation for any items up to £1000.

Can I ask when it says council may devolve to committees from time to time....why is it the clerk who determines that?
Thank you.

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thank you - as I don't sit on the estates committee I could only make comment in the public forum but I am confused as to why the clerk then put my proposal on the full council agenda after one have being heard at the estate committee!

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This is a very confused wording. It states that the role is advisory and the committee makes recommendations to the council. In other words, it has no delegated powers to spend. The finance regs refer to a duly delegated committee, but this isn't a duly delegated committee, as you have no evidence of delegation. So it has no powers to spend.

As we're quite close to the Annual Meeting cycle, I suggest that you talk to the clerk and chair about sorting out all of these anomalies so that a new proposal may be put before the council at the Annual Meeting. This can follow either route, i.e. full delegation, or no delegation, or indeed anything in between. The important part of this is to be clear both to yourselves and to the wider world about who does what and be able to demonstrate that you are complying fully with your own standing orders.

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Dave - thank you thank you thank you...that is great.

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Sorry to be a pain but does this mean that the financial proposal approved at Estates Committee are now void and should be reheard and debated in Full Council?

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Strictly speaking, yes, but as the decision was made last month as an urgent action on health and safety grounds, is it already beyond the point at which it can be stopped? Speak to the chair and clerk and outline your concerns. If they decide to proceed anyway, it's probably not worth falling out over it.

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Trouble is for me it is an emblematic issue that underscores the council to date spending money without restraint because the taxpayer will just keep topping up the coffers.....the health & safety issue is a subjective view determined by one councillor, there are mitigations in place, there are alternatives that cost less and in 3 years there have been no accidents or residents complaints - moreover it goes to the heart of the problem which is that the council has split a job into two when one job would have solved all issues for less......and procedurally and with proper processes in place and risk assessment and H&S assessment done first before any proposal a better decision could have been reached - we are spending and making commitments with tax payer money and creating jobs that go to the same people over and over again.....it's a symptom and the cure is better process & accountability not the attitude of 'we've always done it this way' and as you say not worth falling out over it but then I am conflicted over the principle and integrity behind my intent to debate it!  Thank you once again though.

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I understand your concern and I wondered whether this was a regular occurrence. If you can put a stop to it, with the support of the chair and clerk, that is undoubtedly the right course of action. If not, in the grand scheme of things, it's a couple of quid per resident that shouldn't have been spent without due process (if at all), but it's a significant weapon in your armoury of procedural improvement. Having this specific example of everything that's wrong will help you to focus minds on the weaknesses and the need for change. In the long run, you might be glad this happened.

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Thanks David - trouble is faith and trust in clerk and chair.....rest of my colleagues don't quite grasp the nub of what I am saying.....but as you say its a weapon in my armoury of procedural improvement and I shall chose my moment to deploy....much appreciated. Good night.

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DavetheClerk - sorry me again.....the clerk won't accept the opinion you have on the muddled Terms of Reference and delegated powers etc.....she insists on knowing my source! "Please provide me with the source of your advice so I can validate – I always question opinion and rely on fact and law'" Where might I go to back up what you have said? Thank you once again

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Your clerk is probably reading this tread and has worked out who you are );0)

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Great - then they can join in and tell us why they are rejecting the opinion given!

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I think your clerk has missed the point here. You have a Scheme of Delegation, agreed at the Annual Meeting, which defines the role of the Estates Committee as "to consider policy issues..." and "scrutinise the operation..." and "to make recommendations to the Council..." There is no mention of any power to spend money, whether budgeted or not. If the Council wishes the Committee to have delegated powers to spend in accordance with the Financial Regulations, add this to the delegated role of the committee. Job done!

For what it's worth, I've been involved in local government administration since 1984 and for the last 30 years, I have held various positions providing advice and support to councils and voluntary organisations in relation to cooperation and joint working.